Buffalo Bills Talk

On May 27, 9:14 am, "Geoff" wrote:
> Kountzeguy wrote:
> >> Yeah...but you are missing my point. I am not arguing *for* JP. He
> >> sucks. Tred is the starter. No problem. I just think he needs to
> >> prove he can do it. For my money, he showed brief flashes of
> >> capability intersperced with long stretches of rookie. Nothing
> >> extraordinary.
>
> > He needs to prove that to me and everyone.You were saying JP Losman
> > played the same as Edwards.
>
> *sigh* No I didn't. I questioned your claim that Edwards played "much
> better". He didn't. He gets the rookie pass. I get it.


He played much better when you look at sacks and turnovers.That makes
for more wins.The rest of the stats were even.He out played him
period.


>
> What I object to is the claim by some that the rookie showed any compelling
> signs that he will be the next quarterback to do anything for the Bills. I
> am merely being skeptical. And I further object to any reference to the
> rookie years of Favre or whomever as any kind of indication about Tred's
> ability. That's a logical fallacy.

I'm skeptical too.But he did show some good skills last year.If he can
build on
it and get better.You clearly don't like the Trent Edwards.Because you
keep
calling him Tred.So I don't expect you to see clearly what he did last
year.
He out played a 4th year guy.He showed good accuracy and good pocket
pressence.Taking alot less sacks and getting the ball out.Mixed in
with 3 or
4 solid games.Pretty good for a rookie that only started 9 games.I'm
not
here saying this guy is the next Jim Kelly.I'm saying give the guy a
shot.
I think he has earned it.




>
> To paraphrase Sagan: "But the fact that some great quarterbacks were
> ordinary early in their careers does not imply that all quarterbacks who are
> ordinary early in their careers are great quarterbacks. Favre was ordinary,
> Young was ordinary, Manning was ordinary. But Ryan Leaf was ordinary too."

Duh!

On May 27, 9:31 am, "Geoff" wrote:
> Kountzeguy wrote:
> > On May 26, 6:46 pm, night wrote:
> >> Coldday...@gmail.com wrote
> >> innews:614dc735-cc76-423d-a278-049dabde1fa7@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
>
> >>> No because I don't see anyone out there right now.
>
> >> Then you just negated your argument. If there is no viable back up
> >> out
> >> there right now, then why get rid of your only viable BU you have
> >> right
> >> now?
>
> > Show me a list dude and I will give you some names of guys the same as
> > JP.
> > My point was waiting for someone better then Losman.Tho I bet there
> > are a few
> > out there right now better then JP.
>
> >>> But there will be
> >>> before the season starts.
>
> >> Unless you can see the future, you *hope* there will be.
>
> > No you way overrate JP Losman.That's your problem.It will not be hard
> > at
> > all to replace him.Craig Nall is better then JP Losman.
>
> Dubious though compelling. He's only had significant playing time in one
> season (other than NFL Europe) since senior year HS in 1996. In six
> professional seasons, Nall has thrown a grand total of 48 passes. But, your
> point is taken. Nall is probably the best quarterback still available which
> says more for what's available than for Nall. Let's see if the Bills make a
> move. They know his capability. That doesn't bode well for Nall.
>


I thought Nall was signed by the Packers again?They did draft two QB's
and
they have Rogers.So if he is even still on the team probably wont make
the
team.Nall hasn't been giving a chance to play.He backed up Farve and
he was cut from the team last year because they wanted to have Edwards
as the #2 QB.I seen Nall play in preaseason last year against the
Saints.In that game he looked better then JP and Edwards to me.His arm
isn't real strong but he gets the ball out and he is accurate.

>> > No you way overrate JP Losman.That's your problem.It will not be hard
> > at
> > all to replace him.Craig Nall is better then JP Losman.
>
> I am not overrating JP. Nobody posting to this NG is.
> All I am saying (and maybe Geoff is too) as of *right now* (May 2008) JP
> Losman is the best option as the Bills BU QB. That could change tomorrow,
> next week, next month, or during training camp. But until that time, JP is
> the choice.

Well both of you went from making excuses for JP(no Oline no talent)to
now
saying you don't overrate him.


>
> As for Craig Nall, he is so good the Bills cut him twice, and in both
> instances opted to keep JP.
>

They cut Nall because of Edwards not because of Losman.They put
Edwards
at back up so their was no need for Nall.Losman was hurt so they
brought back in Nall.Because he knew the offense.You don't keep a guy
like Nall as a 3rd string QB.The 3rd string is uselly for a young
guy.Nall is more of a 2nd string
vet.But the team wanted Edwards to get the reps at 2nd for the
future.I do think
Nall is better then Losman and will stick with that.I don't care how
many times
he has been cut.The Bills are just having a hard time giving up on a
first round
bust.It will come tho.


> Night- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Kountzeguy wrote in
news:478337f8-5c30-49bb-99ff-daf882d7f882@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:

>>> > No you way overrate JP Losman.That's your problem.It will not be
>>> > hard
>> > at
>> > all to replace him.Craig Nall is better then JP Losman.
>>
>> I am not overrating JP. Nobody posting to this NG is.
>> All I am saying (and maybe Geoff is too) as of *right now* (May 2008)
>> JP Losman is the best option as the Bills BU QB. That could change
>> tomorrow, next week, next month, or during training camp. But until
>> that time, JP is the choice.
>
> Well both of you went from making excuses for JP(no Oline no talent)to
> now
> saying you don't overrate him.


Wrong. Go back and re-read the thread. All of it.

The O-line and talent "excuses" came about because *you* compared JP to
Big Ben, Manning, et al., and how that group had two SB wins and
counting.

In defense of JP, Geo mentioned that both Manning and Big Ben had better
O-lines. Geoff essentially concurred. I not only concurred, but even
claimed both Manning and Big Ben had the benefit of better supporting
talent (running game, defense, etc.).

Do you disagree?

At which point *you* brought Trent into the discussion, and attempted to
prove how much better Trent is vs JP.

The discussion had nothing to do with Trent vs. JP. Nobody here is
making the claim JP is *better* than Trent, or that JP should be the
starter.

I do believe we all agree that Trent is the starter, and JP is the back
up.

The discussion was whether or not should JP be the back up, and if not,
who?

>
>>
>> As for Craig Nall, he is so good the Bills cut him twice, and in both
>> instances opted to keep JP.
>>
>
> They cut Nall because of Edwards not because of Losman.They put
> Edwards
> at back up so their was no need for Nall.Losman was hurt so they
> brought back in Nall.Because he knew the offense.You don't keep a guy
> like Nall as a 3rd string QB.The 3rd string is uselly for a young
> guy.Nall is more of a 2nd string
> vet.

Then how do you explain how Nall ended up back in GB as the 3rd string
QB behind Rodgers?

> But the team wanted Edwards to get the reps at 2nd for the
> future.I do think
> Nall is better then Losman and will stick with that.I don't care how
> many times
> he has been cut.

You stick with that.

The Bills have cut him twice, GB doesn't want him (he is no longer on
the GB roster), and even the Texans did not keep him for longer than a
month (he signed with Houston after being cut by the Bills the second
time).

As far as the Bills are concerned, Nall is not option for the back up QB
spot. I seriously doubt Nall will come back to Buffalo after being cut
twice.

> The Bills are just having a hard time giving up on a
> first round
> bust.It will come tho.

They already have given up on JP. Haven't you heard? Trent Edwards is
the starter, and has been since the Jax game.



Night

On May 28, 9:24 am, night wrote:
> Kountzeguy wrote innews:478337f8-5c30-49bb-99ff-daf882d7f882@y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
>
> >>> > No you way overrate JP Losman.That's your problem.It will not be
> >>> > hard
> >> > at
> >> > all to replace him.Craig Nall is better then JP Losman.
>
> >> I am not overrating JP. Nobody posting to this NG is.
> >> All I am saying (and maybe Geoff is too) as of *right now* (May 2008)
> >> JP Losman is the best option as the Bills BU QB. That could change
> >> tomorrow, next week, next month, or during training camp. But until
> >> that time, JP is the choice.
>
> > Well both of you went from making excuses for JP(no Oline no talent)to
> > now
> > saying you don't overrate him.
>
> Wrong. Go back and re-read the thread. All of it.
>
> The O-line and talent "excuses" came about because *you* compared JP to
> Big Ben, Manning, et al., and how that group had two SB wins and
> counting.

Even worse you defend him againt SB winning QB.


>
> In defense of JP, Geo mentioned that both Manning and Big Ben had better
> O-lines. Geoff essentially concurred. I not only concurred, but even
> claimed both Manning and Big Ben had the benefit of better supporting
> talent (running game, defense, etc.).

If JP Losman was the starting QB for either of them teams they would
not have a SB ring.Manning,Big Ben,Rivers and Matt Schaub are just
better QBs.Yes they had more talent around them but they had talent
themselfs to take advatage of that.JP doesn't.A rookie out played him
with the same oline and talent.So I don't see how you can defend him
over a SB winning QB.



>
> Do you disagree?
>
> At which point *you* brought Trent into the discussion, and attempted to
> prove how much better Trent is vs JP.
>
> The discussion had nothing to do with Trent vs. JP. Nobody here is
> making the claim JP is *better* than Trent, or that JP should be the
> starter.
>
> I do believe we all agree that Trent is the starter, and JP is the back
> up.
>
> The discussion was whether or not should JP be the back up, and if not,
> who?
>
>
>
> >> As for Craig Nall, he is so good the Bills cut him twice, and in both
> >> instances opted to keep JP.
>
> > They cut Nall because of Edwards not because of Losman.They put
> > Edwards
> > at back up so their was no need for Nall.Losman was hurt so they
> > brought back in Nall.Because he knew the offense.You don't keep a  guy
> > like Nall as a 3rd string QB.The 3rd string is uselly for a young
> > guy.Nall is more of a 2nd string
> > vet.
>
> Then how do you explain how Nall ended up back in GB as the 3rd string
> QB behind Rodgers?


Are you talking about last year?That's because Brett Favre was
injured.
He didn't miss a game but they brought in Nall incase Farve couldn't
go.
Nall would back up Rogers.

>
> > But the team wanted Edwards to get the reps at 2nd for the
> > future.I do think
> > Nall is better then Losman and will stick with that.I don't care how
> > many times
> > he has been cut.
>
> You stick with that.
>
> The Bills have cut him twice, GB doesn't want him (he is no longer on
> the GB roster), and even the Texans did not keep him for longer than a
> month (he signed with Houston after being cut by the Bills the second
> time).

The Texans signed him because Matt Schaub was hurt.Once he got healthy
they cut him.As I said a team will not keep a vet at 3rd string.


>
> As far as the Bills are concerned, Nall is not option for the back up QB
> spot. I seriously doubt Nall will come back to Buffalo after being cut
> twice.

I never said he would come back.I just said he is better then JP
Losman.I
would sign him as back up the Buffalo Bills wont.

>
> > The Bills are just having a hard time giving up on a
> > first round
> > bust.It will come tho.
>
> They already have given up on JP. Haven't you heard? Trent Edwards is
> the starter, and has been since the Jax game.

You cut first round bust.That's the point when you give up on him.If
he is still on
the roster im guessing they think he can play some what.


>
> Night

Kountzeguy wrote:

> If JP Losman was the starting QB for either of them teams they would
> not have a SB ring

Huh? In Super Bowl XL Ben Roethlisberger was 9 for 21, for 123 yards, 0
TD's ,2 INT's for a QB rating of 22.6.

Kountzeguy wrote in
news:d963454f-845d-417b-8c7b-20db98bcb1c4@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:


> Even worse you defend him againt SB winning QB.

Weak and typical. Focus on the messenger when you cannot tolerate the
message.

When a QB wins a SB, does that mean they are inherently better than QBs
that do not?

Do I need to generate a list of bad to average QBs that are SB winners?
Does the name Trent Dilfer ring a bell?


>>
>> In defense of JP, Geo mentioned that both Manning and Big Ben had
>> better O-lines. Geoff essentially concurred. I not only concurred,
>> but even claimed both Manning and Big Ben had the benefit of better
>> supporting talent (running game, defense, etc.).
>
> If JP Losman was the starting QB for either of them teams they would
> not have a SB ring.

That may be true, but I also believe that if the Giants and the Steelers
did not have stout defenses, neither Manning nor Big Ben would be
sporting rings right now either.

I also believe that if we had acquired Manning or Big Ben instead of JP,
the Bills would still be looking at a playoff drought.

> Manning,Big Ben,Rivers and Matt Schaub are just
> better QBs.Yes they had more talent around them but they had talent
> themselfs to take advatage of that.JP doesn't.

During his first two years, Big Ben looked pedestrian at best. Even when
he was "winning" the SB, Ben Big looked awful. He may talent, but he
sure was not displaying it then.

Until the Giants won the SB this past year, it was beginning to look
like Mannings days in NY were numbered. His biggest knock was his
inconsistentcy. Maybe he finally straightened out. Then again, maybe
this past year was just a fluke. I would say the jury is still out on
Manning, at least for another year.

> A rookie out played him
> with the same oline and talent.So I don't see how you can defend him
> over a SB winning QB.

Here we go again. Based on your logic, how could I ever defend Jim Kelly
against Mark Rypien.


>
> Are you talking about last year?That's because Brett Favre was
> injured.
> He didn't miss a game but they brought in Nall incase Farve couldn't
> go.
> Nall would back up Rogers.

And now that there is no Favre for next year, the Packers still let him
walk. There will be no opportunity to compete for the back up spot for
Mr. Nall in Wisconsin.


> The Texans signed him because Matt Schaub was hurt.Once he got healthy
> they cut him.As I said a team will not keep a vet at 3rd string.

Something I just remembered, IIRC, wasn't Nall listed as 3rd string on
the Bills behind Kelly Holcomb?


> I never said he would come back.I just said he is better then JP
> Losman.I
> would sign him as back up the Buffalo Bills wont.

That's funny. I thought the premise of the discussion was who could be
the Bills back up QB? Since you could not provide the name of a viable
back up option for the Bills (as it was pointed out earlier in the
thread, right now there is nobody available), you decided to make this a
"I hate JP" thread.

>
>>
>> > The Bills are just having a hard time giving up on a
>> > first round
>> > bust.It will come tho.
>>
>> They already have given up on JP. Haven't you heard? Trent Edwards is
>> the starter, and has been since the Jax game.
>
> You cut first round bust.That's the point when you give up on him.If
> he is still on
> the roster im guessing they think he can play some what.

Unless a first round player is starting, he's a bust, IMO. You do not
draft players in the first round to be back ups.




Night

"night" wrote in message
news:Xns9AADEE359F46Bohssorrynet@216.196.97.136...
> Kountzeguy wrote in
> news:d963454f-845d-417b-8c7b-20db98bcb1c4@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>> Even worse you defend him againt SB winning QB.
>
> Weak and typical. Focus on the messenger when you cannot tolerate the
> message.
>
> When a QB wins a SB, does that mean they are inherently better than QBs
> that do not?
>
> Do I need to generate a list of bad to average QBs that are SB winners?
> Does the name Trent Dilfer ring a bell?

And let us never forget that Jeff Hostetler and Mark Rypien are better
quarterbacks than Jim Kelly.

On May 29, 10:26 pm, night wrote:
> Kountzeguy wrote innews:d963454f-845d-417b-8c7b-20db98bcb1c4@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
> > Even worse you defend him againt SB winning QB.
>
> Weak and typical. Focus on the messenger when you cannot tolerate the
> message.

* are you talking about?


>
> When a QB wins a SB, does that mean they are inherently better than QBs
> that do not?

Never said that.

>
> Do I need to generate a list of bad to average QBs that are SB winners?
> Does the name Trent Dilfer ring a bell?

Yes please make me a list.Because I think it will be very short.Most
QBs that
win super bowls are good QB's.


>
>
>
> >> In defense of JP, Geo mentioned that both Manning and Big Ben had
> >> better O-lines. Geoff essentially concurred. I not only concurred,
> >> but even claimed both Manning and Big Ben had the benefit of better
> >> supporting talent (running game, defense, etc.).
>
> > If JP Losman was the starting QB for either of them teams they would
> > not have a SB ring.
>
> That may be true, but I also believe that if the Giants and the Steelers
> did not have stout defenses, neither Manning nor Big Ben would be
> sporting rings right now either.

It is true no maybe about it.Yes they had a good defense duh.My point
is Losman could'nt even win with that.


>
> I also believe that if we had acquired Manning or Big Ben instead of JP,
> the Bills would still be looking at a playoff drought.

I don't agree.

>
> > Manning,Big Ben,Rivers and Matt Schaub are just
> > better QBs.Yes they had more talent around them but they had talent
> > themselfs to take advatage of that.JP doesn't.
>
> During his first two years, Big Ben looked pedestrian at best. Even when
> he was "winning" the SB, Ben Big looked awful. He may talent, but he
> sure was not displaying it then.

Pedestrain.Are you * nuts?Go back to his first year and look at
all the plays he made.His second year he managed the game and did it
very well.
A second year guy that can manage the game like a vet says alot to
me.Now
he is one of the best QB's in the NFL.


>
> Until the Giants won the SB this past year, it was beginning to look
> like Mannings days in NY were numbered. His biggest knock was his
> inconsistentcy. Maybe he finally straightened out. Then again, maybe
> this past year was just a fluke. I would say the jury is still out on
> Manning, at least for another year.

You might have thought Mannings days were numbered but I didn't.I
could see clearly he would come around.The jury isn't out.Catch up
the guy is a top 10 QB.


>
> > A rookie out played him
> > with the same oline and talent.So I don't see how you can defend him
> > over a SB winning QB.
>
> Here we go again. Based on your logic, how could I ever defend Jim Kelly
> against Mark Rypien.

I never * said just because big ben and manning had rings made
them
better then QB's with out them.I am saying they are so much better
then JP
Losman.I find it nuts you even try to defened him over these guys.


>
>
>
>
>
> > Are you talking about last year?That's because Brett Favre was
> > injured.
> > He didn't miss a game but they brought in Nall incase Farve couldn't
> > go.
> > Nall would back up Rogers.
>
> And now that there is no Favre for next year, the Packers still let him
> walk. There will be no opportunity to compete for the back up spot for
> Mr. Nall in Wisconsin.


Because they drafted two QBs!One being a 2nd round pick.Guys that
have to be on the roster not the practice squad.No room for Nall.I
never
said the Packers liked him or the Bills.I said I think he can play.I
think he
would be a better back up then Losman.



>
>
>
> > The Texans signed him because Matt Schaub was hurt.Once he got healthy
> > they cut him.As I said a team will not keep a vet at 3rd string.
>
> Something I just remembered, IIRC, wasn't Nall listed as 3rd string on
> the Bills behind Kelly Holcomb?

I don't remember.

>
>
>
> > I never said he would come back.I just said he is better then JP
> > Losman.I
> > would sign him as back up the Buffalo Bills wont.
>
> That's funny. I thought the premise of the discussion was who could be
> the Bills back up QB? Since you could not provide the name of a viable
> back up option for the Bills (as it was pointed out earlier in the
> thread, right now there is nobody available), you decided to make this a
> "I hate JP" thread.

I think Nall is better then JP.I said I was going to wait till before
the season to
find his replacement.



>
>
>
> >> > The Bills are just having a hard time giving up on a
> >> > first round
> >> > bust.It will come tho.
>
> >> They already have given up on JP. Haven't you heard? Trent Edwards is
> >> the starter, and has been since the Jax game.
>
> > You cut first round bust.That's the point when you give up on him.If
> > he is still on
> > the roster im guessing they think he can play some what.
>
> Unless a first round player is starting, he's a bust, IMO. You do not
> draft players in the first round to be back ups.




> Night

On May 30, 9:50 am, "Claude" wrote:
> "night" wrote in message
>
> news:Xns9AADEE359F46Bohssorrynet@216.196.97.136...
>
> > Kountzeguy wrote in
> >news:d963454f-845d-417b-8c7b-20db98bcb1c4@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
>
> >
> >> Even worse you defend him againt SB winning QB.
>
> > Weak and typical. Focus on the messenger when you cannot tolerate the
> > message.
>
> > When a QB wins a SB, does that mean they are inherently better than QBs
> > that do not?
>
> > Do I need to generate a list of bad to average QBs that are SB winners?
> > Does the name Trent Dilfer ring a bell?
>
> And let us never forget that Jeff Hostetler and Mark Rypien are better
> quarterbacks than Jim Kelly.

You guys are nuts with this *.Don't put words in my mouth.I never
said
anything close to this.I said Eli Manning and Big Ben are better then
JP
Losman.I stated it was one of the worse draft picks in Bills
History.Because
theses two guys are going to be really good and JP out of the NFL.The
fact that they have SB rings just shows that much more that they are
better
then Losman.Rivers and Schaub are way better.Neither have a ring.A
couple
of these guys are going to have a few rings and maybe even a couple in
the
HOF.So no JP Losman drafted in the same year was a great pick.Im wrong
you guys have showen me the light.